Negotiations are an essential part of everyday life. We negotiate with our family members, our colleagues and people we’ve met for the first time. So why do so many business books claim that great negotiators should be uncompromising and cold? In “Bring Yourself: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly,” Mori Taheripour makes the case that the best negotiators are curious, empathetic and, oftentimes, the best listeners in the room. Taheripour is a master negotiator whose techniques have been implemented by all types of leaders, from sports executives to Fortune 500 C.E.O.s – but her book offers advice that anyone can draw from to be more confident as they navigate their everyday lives.
Negotiations are an essential part of everyday life. We negotiate with our family members, our colleagues and people we’ve met for the first time. So why do so many business books claim that great negotiators should be uncompromising and cold? In “Bring Yourself: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly,” Mori Taheripour makes the case that the best negotiators are curious, empathetic and, oftentimes, the best listeners in the room. Taheripour is a master negotiator whose techniques have been implemented by all types of leaders, from sports executives to Fortune 500 C.E.O.s – but her book offers advice that anyone can draw from to be more confident as they navigate their everyday lives.
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Cardiff VO: My name is Cardiff Garcia, and this is The Next Chapter by American Express Business Class.
Hello, and welcome to the show. In each episode, we’ll introduce you to a bestselling book that everyone in the world of business can learn something from, we’ll hear how the author’s advice has evolved since they published their work, and what they would write for their next chapter.
Today, we’ll be speaking with Mori Teheiripour, she’s the author of Bring Yourself: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Effortlessly. In her book – which originally came out right at the onset of the pandemic – Mori makes the point that the pathway to a successful negotiation is less about learning how to beat an opponent… and more about knowing yourself and how to communicate with empathy. Mori is a six time recipient of the excellence in teaching award from the Wharton School where she is a professor of Legal Studies and Business Ethics, and she’s spent 15 years teaching negotiation techniques to everyone from professional athletes to Fortune 500 CEOs.
I invited Mori on the show to talk through what we can all learn from Bring Yourself, and how her thoughts on what it means to be a good negotiator have evolved since the book came out in 2020.
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Cardiff Garcia: Mori Taheripour welcome to The Next Chapter podcast.
Mori Taheripour: Thanks Cardiff. So excited to be here.
Cardiff Garcia: Here's where I want to start, it's actually just with the title of your book which is Bring Yourself: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. It implies something kind of interesting, which is that sometimes we don't bring ourselves, we bring some other inauthentic version of ourselves to a negotiation and that's when we don't just send a whole different person to do the negotiating for us. Right? So let's start there. What does it mean to bring yourself to a negotiation?
Mori Taheripour: When I wrote this book and decided to write this book I had obviously done so much research I had read a gajillion negotiation books and by the time I really sat down and thought about what is the message I want to give people it was that I don't want anybody to memorize anything in this book. This is the notion of being prescriptive around something that I think is really about our values and our own voice and it's so individual that I had no right to tell people do this and do that because there are no guarantees. It was really important for people to feel empowered to know that their voice is what really matters, and that was the whole notion with bringing yourself having the courage to come to the table, speak your truth, speak your voice and be authentic about it too to an extent but be authentic about it.
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah I think a lot of people think of negotiation as well If I use some specific tactics then I'll get what I want. And so they're looking for essentially some shortcuts. You seem to approach this from a much more fundamental angle. Like you got to work on yourself and who you are and that's actually what matters when you show up to a negotiation.
Mori Taheripour: Exactly. Exactly. Because at the end of the day if we don't understand ourselves how do we really know what we truly want. And think that we're empowered, we're most clear about the things that we want in life, the things that are important to us when we had that conversation with ourselves and really understood our own values, our convictions, the things that make us happy, our purpose. And so until you have that conversation with yourself you can't successfully have it with anybody else. You can't persuade anybody until you've persuaded yourself first.
Cardiff Garcia: You almost have to negotiate with yourself before you negotiate with other people.
Mori Taheripour: Absolutely. And I think that's actually the hardest part. I think that it's a whole lot easier to just learn tactics and strategies and in some ways and approach this notion of this is all I have to know, this is what I learned in the book or the class and this makes me perfectly prepared for this conversation. It's a whole lot harder to start inward and really have that conversation with yourself and know who you are because there's so much baggage that you have to sort of sift through and getting past that baggage which some of us have like storage units it's not just baggage then only then do you really understand the things that are most important to you.
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah. You even wrote in the book that when you teach negotiations because you're getting at some pretty foundational things about people. A lot of times there's a lot of tears, there's some anger there's a lot of sort of people confronting parts of themselves that maybe they'd been avoiding in the past.
Mori Taheripour: It's drama. I mean really like it the students come to class and they're so ready to talk about - she's going to tell us how to buy something sell something, how do I negotiate this contract. At the very beginning of class I'm like you're going to find that this is far less sort of academic and about tactics and strategy than it is about therapy. And so we're going to take a journey here and I want you to be vulnerable I want you to be open. And they're like what? And they don't really understand where I'm taking them It just takes a couple of hours.
Cardiff Garcia: They’re like c'mon tell me where to start my opening bid. Like how high?
Mori Taheripour: Exactly. It's not about that. Now let's think about something very different which is looking inward and that's the most difficult part. And so it's scary for a lot of people. It's a very scary proposition to say we're going to be vulnerable. And I want you to have the courage to look inside because that's where all this sort of originates. Everything else will come but this is first.
Cardiff Garcia: You write something interesting in the opening chapters of the book that if you accomplish nothing else in the book it's to convince people who are empathetic, quiet, maybe introverted that they too can be great negotiators. Because we do have this kind of stereotype in our minds of what a great negotiator is: extroverted, aggressive, super tough, thrives on conflict. And your point is that is not necessarily what makes a great negotiator. They can… that person kind of person can be a great negotiator but don't rule out other people who have these other distinct personality traits as well.
Mori Taheripour: Absolutely. Because I think you know as I've looked at examples as we've all seen examples of there's no sort of cookie cutter approach to negotiations and certainly not one type of personality that's successful. So we have the diplomats who are incredibly successful in negotiations. They are not contentious. They don't appear aggressive and in your face. Their role is to find a middle ground. And are we going to say they're not successful? No. They absolutely are. They stop wars. They bring people together. And that we've got these sort of the aggressive you know I can think about sort of the sports agent types. It's, it's me. It's all about me. I know exactly what I want and as I walk away it doesn't matter if somebody's blown up behind me I'm going to get what's mine. And while there are very successful sort of personality types that are more aggressive there's plenty of examples of people who are not. Cause it's a learned skill. I think that kind of needs to be the conversation because there's room for everybody.
Cardiff Garcia: This is related to another concept in the book which is how dangerous it is to be a people pleaser. And look, when we think about this you know of course we want to like please other people sometimes you know the people that are close to us. Our loved ones, our friends, we all yearn for a deep human connection and it sucks when somebody is mad at us or dislikes us. The problem with this is that if you're always trying to please people of course you might end up short changing yourself in a negotiation but you found in the book that this is a very common thing for people that people often end up like not demanding what they're worthy of because they just want to please the other side.
Mori Taheripour: I was told when I was writing this book that Mori you'll never know what sort of lessons people are going to be drawn to the most. Like you can't even anticipate that. Well I never anticipated this was going to be it. Like every person I talked to that like oh I saw myself in that I'm absolutely a pleaser. And it's a struggle that I think everybody's so man, woman, college student, executive, it almost feels like it's a universal truth for many people. And the thing about pleasers is that… First let me start with the good stuff. The good characteristics. Cause I said anybody can be a great negotiator as can pleasers. And I think that pleasers have this really amazing sense of others. Right? Sort of the connection that they feel with the people that they are negotiating with because they're emotionally intelligent, they have a strong sense of what the other person wants and needs because they pay so much attention to that because they want to serve. They want to take care of this person. They want to make sure that this person walks away happy.
Cardiff Garcia: Sure. They're practiced at finding the things that make other people happy…
Mori Taheripour: Absolutely. Absolutely. And those are all great qualities. Right? They have empathy. They have the ability to stay present and to listen. However,
Cardiff Garcia: Here comes the tough part.
Mori Taheripour: Right, here comes the tough part - What you find then as a pleaser is that if this becomes the way you operate at all times. That at some point for every yes that you say you are ultimately saying no to something it usually ends up being yourself. And this notion that if I ask for what I want and what makes me happy then that necessarily means I'm leaving you out, and that's not true. So if pleasers could actually turn all those great skills that I talked about earlier and all their great attributes, like empathy and curiosity and and being present for the person that they're negotiating with on themselves, then, that's sort of the perfect combination. Right? So do all those things for others but first do it for yourself.
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Cardiff Garcia: I want to ask now about some specific ideas that organizations and people inside of organizations like many of your students can take away from your book. And here's where I want to begin, it's with the exchange of information that often happens at the very beginning of a negotiation where you're essentially putting your cards on the table or at least the cards that you choose to show. And the first thing you say is that there needs to be a human connection that you establish with the other side and that you can't rush it.
Mori Taheripour: Yeah. So when people think about negotiations they often just think about sort of that transactional conversation. There's really a sort of these multiple stages four stages of negotiations. That first part that everybody knows about it’s sort of the preparation phase that you do on your own. And then this next phase of it is sort of this information exchange phase. Right? And this is what first of all I love to teach, I love to talk about because this is what I love about negotiations is that opportunity when you first meet somebody, or if you already know them that that moment that you sit down and really brings humanity into this experience. This is where you're building rapport. This is where your dialogue has really very little to do with the transaction that lays ahead but it's really about you in this moment getting to know somebody because once you do this well, once you allow for that humanity maybe allow for a little bit of that vulnerability where you're actually telling somebody about yourself you're opening up, then I think it sort of greases the wheels beautifully for that actually transactional conversation that will sort of be the next in line. Right? When that first opening offer is made. But without this phase without the stage where you actually get to know someone, then you are eliminating any opportunity for you to actually connect with someone, to like someone. To leave an impression on someone. And then you become just a mere transaction after that. Right? So it's no secret why if you were to walk into a negotiation and say, “Hey how are you? My name is Mori. How much?” That's a pretty black and white conversation. Whereas if you walk into a room and you commit yourself to actually learning about this person, seeing the person, allowing them to see you then that opens up the dialogue in a way that's very different than that transactional conversation because you may actually like each other.
Cardiff Garcia: It's gotta be genuine.
Mori Taheripour: Absolutely
Cardiff Garcia: Right cause I could see I could see how this could come across as almost manipulating or sleazy…
Mori Taheripour: I always tell my students if you can't do this authentically then just skip it. Because then you come across as that sort of the used car salesman type. And you have an agenda. To do this the only agenda you have to have is that you want to get to know this person, that you're curious about them and you want to learn more. And it does take time. I always tell my entrepreneurs yes forgive me for this because I am going to increase your sales cycle, right? This is time that you may not have allocated to this process but it changes everything. This is where the magic happens. This is where you know I believe that people for example don't choose a product or a company they choose people that they want to do business with or they want to be in relationships with and work with. So if you allow them to actually see more of you and you see them because then they feel important they feel valued and it's done authentically, then that person will choose you. Even if they don't have it at the end of the negotiations you've figured out that they don't have the money to afford you this time around, right, for your services or your product, they don't have the budget. But if the experience that they had was one where they felt valued or respected. They actually enjoyed meeting you, then it's likely that they'll come back because of that experience. And so you're sort of building in value in perpetuity as opposed to this one-time transactional, “What is it that you want? We're done,” and you walk away. What's the value in that?
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah. There's an example in the book of a big company that had a really difficult negotiation coming up with its union. And the reason was that the company was really struggling. It was going to have to make some layoffs and if it didn't do that it was going to probably go bankrupt or go out of business and then nobody would have a job. So it wasn't a question of can we do this without losing people, some people they were going to have to lose. It was do we lose some jobs or do we lose all the jobs. And they knew this was going to be a tough negotiation. And the thing that ended up helping was more data transparency. It was essentially opening up the books and saying to the union look, you may not trust us. Okay. You may think we're just trying to cut people so that we can save money and cut costs but actually this is our situation. Here's the data, we may interpret the data differently but we're going to show you the books. And this seemed to me like a really powerful idea. And it raises the question of how much transparency in negotiation is the right amount of transparency?
Mori Taheripour: So I think we've often been told don't share anything right? In negotiations.
Cardiff Garcia: Information is power
Mori Taheripour: Information is power. The less you say the better you are same same thing around like have a poker face. Don't show anybody your cards. Well the truth is if negotiations is about problem solving. Right? You can't solve problems without information. It's sort of like solving an equation with three variables and nobody knows any of those variables you know and so good luck solving that equation. So there's gotta be some amount of information that you allow into the conversation so that again you can come to a more thoughtful, well-received, even more rational outcome. So I think part of it is don't be fearful. Don't be so fearful. Prepare ahead of time for what you can actually share. Because you will soon realize that there's probably more than you can share than not. And the goodwill that you get from the transparency. Right? So the example you just talked about you know it's very easy for you to to be hated by your stakeholders, employees, what have you if you hold back your cards and you don't show them the information behind the decisions that you're making. But when you do you create an opportunity for understanding. You create an opportunity maybe even for some amount of problem solving at that point.
Cardiff Garcia: You're showing some vulnerability.
Mori Taheripour: You’re showing some vulnerability, but not in a way that hurts you actually, in a way that actually helps you.
Cardiff Garcia: Deepens the relationship.
Mori Taheripour: Absolutely, absolutely. So if we could just eliminate that fear of like no keep your mouth shut, don't say anything, so so therefore I can't share, then I think you open the door for far better decision-making and to your point a sort of a deeper understanding.
Cardiff Garcia: Here's a tricky issue. Bring Yourself and the themes in the book it's all about being a very authentic well-integrated version of yourself when you show up to a negotiation. But of course for some people, for many people, maybe for most of us that can be a years long process and maybe it never ends. And in the meantime there are negotiations that you have to show up to. Right? The salary negotiation at the end of the year may not wait for you to like finish the several years of therapy or whatever it is that you got to go through to sort of know yourself well enough for that negotiation, you still got to show up to it. So what do you tell somebody who maybe has the self-awareness that they lack the confidence that they should have for the negotiation but they still got to walk into that room and deal with some tough people and still wants to not get hosed in a negotiation that matters? What do you tell them? Good luck?
Mori Taheripour: Data.
Cardiff Garcia: Data? Okay.
Mori Taheripour: I do. Because it becomes a matter of again storytelling. And so the truth is that you can't walk into negotiations and say I want to raise because I deserve one. And for the person who doesn't really have the confidence to do so anyway that's a nightmare. Right? So what can you do? You start collecting the information that actually tells that story and it sort of removes the emotionality in some ways too because you're objectively finding ways to better create the sense of look at all the things that I did, and of course I should be paid more money because I'm carrying somebody else's weight too. Or you know you laid off a bunch of people because we're in a pandemic but it and I'm so grateful that I'm still here. Right? That I'm doing this work I love what I do, but let me just show you how much I've taken on during this time and is it possible for us to sort of have a conversation around compensation. You are inferring that you deserve it. But you deserve it because of all of these things that you've done. And I think that that data especially for people who are not so confident it actually sort of sets them free. Right? You can ask for anything if you can show why you are asking for those things. Right? When it is rational where there is this line of understanding and communication that's very clear. And so I think that yes, is it important to know yourself and ultimately understand why you should be valued because you value yourself? But as you said that could be a life's journey and you need a raise now. I think it's really important to gather that information and and by the way when you do that and you can actually be proud of all that you've accomplished, because sometimes we take it for granted, we don't even know until we start taking an inventory of all those things, and you're like “oh my God, “I did all that?” And so that actually helps you with that other journey which is taking stake for all the things that you've done and being proud of yourself. So I think data actually plays a really really important role for people that need that additional support.
Cardiff Garcia: You’re listening to The Next Chapter by American Express Business class. When we come back we'll hear from Mori Taheripour about what she's learned in the years since Bring Yourself came out.
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Cardiff Garcia: Okay I’d like to now talk about the next chapter, the theme of this show. Your book was published just a couple of years ago. So it hasn't been that long, and yet look at all that's happened in the last couple of years it was published just as the pandemic was getting started. So I'm kind of curious to know if there've been any kind of pandemic era lessons for how negotiations have changed and anything in particular that maybe you've learned or even changed your mind about when it comes to negotiating because of what we've experienced in the last couple of years.
Mori Taheripour: Yeah so it's funny. There are a couple of things and there's a whole chapter in my book about being present. All right. Sort of mindful negotiating. And so in my classes I don't allow any technology. There's no phones, there's nothing that can sort of distract you cause we don't even need anything to distract us we’re already distracted.
Cardiff Garcia: It’s funny because these are like like I said these accomplished adults in some cases business owners, executives but they still try to get away with it even when you tell them not to bring their phones and they think they can sneak a quick glance at their cell phone under the desk or whatever, and you usually bust them.
Mori Taheripour: I do, I do but it's funny. So in the pandemic I'm like okay so I still have to teach and we're all on our devices. Right? We're on our computers and technology is everything now. So
Cardiff Garcia: You can’t have a no technology policy when the technology is literally necessary to teach the courses.
Mori Taheripour: And you're on zoom. Right. So at first I thought maybe this isn't going to work. Maybe that's not the right lesson. So how am I going to work with us? And then what I realized was that no, we just have to actually lean in even more. You have to be that much more cognizant of how distracted you are by your technology. Right? Create those boundaries. Make sure that if you're on Zoom that you put your phone away and you don't look at it, or you put a sign on your door that says, Hey mom's on a call between 11 and 1 can't disrupt it. And then what I realized is that well actually Zoom is quite connected. People know when you're not paying attention, on Zoom. We think we're so slick if you actually follow people's sort of eyes you'll know when they're looking away, you'll know when they're looking down. So these truths are still relevant. Everything that I said in that chapter maybe it's even more relevant in some ways.
Mori Taheripour: So there's that and I think that the fact that we spent so much time these days in our heads. What else are you going to do, right? You're, you're in your home. You can't go anywhere. We're sort of looking inward maybe in a way we hadn't had the opportunity to do before because there just wasn't… our life was so hectic. Then the stories we tell ourselves, how we hold ourselves back, how it's so important to know our value, how it's so important to know who you really are. That's even more relevant. Because I believe that the great resignation, the fact that more people are sort of leaving their jobs to start their own businesses, the fact that people say well I want to do something that is more purposeful or I want to find my true calling so I'm going to quit my job I wasn't happy there I want to follow my heart. That's come from people better knowing themselves. So I feel like the book has become even more relevant because the pandemic has allowed us to do those things that maybe we didn't have time to do before which is take a really hard look at ourselves.
Cardiff Garcia: And the way this manifests also probably has been evolving throughout the pandemic. So if you think about the kinds of things that people are probably negotiating about now a little more than they used to. Things like safety issues at work things like leave policies whether it's parental leave, grieving or leave to take care of an elderly relative, working from home arrangements versus hybrid arrangements where you're sometimes at home because it gives you some flexibility but sometimes you're in the office and see your co-workers. Or even pure remote work. It seems like there's been the introduction of a lot of new variables that people are now negotiating with their bosses and with their companies over and I don't think all of that has shaken out just yet. I don't think we actually have a great sense of where you know the nature of work is headed exactly. But it's all being negotiated right now, right?
Mori Taheripour: Right. You're absolutely right. And again first it's the negotiations you have with yourself.
Cardiff Garcia: And what matters to me about work.
Mori Taheripour: What matters to me. My physical safety. So it's okay if you all are not wearing masks, I choose to do that because. And feeling the courage that you can do that regardless of how people look at you or how you feel like you're treated. So a lot of that comes from sort of what is important to but I also think that companies have been struggling right with their workforce, and getting their employees back, and people leaving in droves. But that negotiations that is going to be so important, is going to be the you can't treat every employee the same way. Right? So it's almost like you have to have these negotiations with each and every one of these employees that you want to stay with a company that you want them to feel like this is the place for them. You have to actually listen to them and you have to actually have that dialogue with them. So the opportunity is there. It's not just about like let me just increase her salary. Yeah, that's not going to do it. Because maybe what they really need to your point is that you know the moms that maybe actually had two years with their kids that they never imagined and now you're telling them that they have to come back into the office five days a week? Giving them more money yeah maybe that takes care of childcare but it's not going to take care of their heart. They feel so connected to their kid now. So what is it that that's important to you? That becomes the negotiations. Right? How can we work this out so that you feel engaged and you feel happy and yet we need you back and just to keep our sort of culture intact, just to feel this connectedness that we need? How can we work with you to do that? And so all of these conversations are sort of one big negotiation. So yeah I think that we you know a lot of the mistakes that companies made especially early on well this has happened. Start stop stop start stop. We're all coming back. No we're not all coming back. Oh there was Omicron. No we're okay. Every single time that happened I think companies realized that there wasn't this sort of one size fits all and they had to do this so that this works in the long term as opposed to the band-aid approach for the here and now.
Cardiff Garcia: In the time since the book did come out what kind of feedback have you gotten on it and has any of it surprised you?
Mori Taheripour: Yes. So the feedback that I've gotten is that people are really afraid of negotiations. Right? That it's their fear of negotiations that's kept them from thinking A, that they can be great negotiators but also taking advantage of the opportunity to negotiate. So when they read the book I never saw it this way, I never ever thought that this was actually what I was doing that I was actually negotiating. And I think that the ability for people to to have sort of shifted the way they look at negotiations, to change that paradigm, now more than ever they need the skill now more than ever they need that courage. And now more than ever they feel like they're actually they're better than- at this than they ever imagined they were. Right? So I think that that the the pandemic again maybe it's that people are spending more time thinking about who they are and looking inward. But the feedback I've gotten is that since this wasn't the I have to do this and I have to be this person and I have to say this prescriptive approach but rather this notion of who am I really? And oh by the way I have every ability, every competency already just just by knowing myself to be a better negotiator that they feel empowered. That they're actually enjoying these conversations. They are having these difficult conversations. But I think it's taken sort of that that perfect balance of you actually have time to think about yourself and whether you like it or not that that time to look inward, but also this notion of and I need to do this. It's not a choice anymore. Right? If I want to stay home with my kid I have to learn to do this better. If I want to save my marriage by creating boundaries for myself and my significant other I need to be able to do this. And oh my God it's not scary It's actually life it's life. Right? So they have to just get past this notion of what does negotiations mean, and if you can shift that as I think has happened through this book and the many conversations I've had I see now a group of people who are more empowered and happier, ultimately.
Cardiff Garcia: As you were writing the book, who'd you have in mind? Who who did you hope would read the book and really absorb its lessons?
Mori Taheripour: This is uh something I learned in business school not to say everybody.
Cardiff Garcia: Because if you say everybody it sounds like you're saying nobody.
Mori Taheripour: Right. Because it's also like well what's the population that you really wanted to reach.
Cardiff Garcia: But if that's the truthful statement if one of the themes in the book is that everybody has the potential to be a good negotiator then why start excluding people.
Mori Taheripour: Right And and I wanted to make negotiations accessible, right? I wanted this to be not a really academic sort of textbook-y kind of approach to negotiations. That's why I chose storytelling as the way to do it. If if this really is life if this is sort of a way to create sort of more empowered readers, a more empowered audience then I wanted anybody that picked it up to sense that. I wanted it to be able to the the housewife and and you know the Midwest uh to pick up this book and say I see myself in these stories, as well as my undergraduate students at Wharton, as well as the corporate executives that I've worked with, as well as the professional athlete. Because I think that we all struggle with. This is sort of one of those things that most people that you ask you know what do you think of negotiations, they say “Oh my God I'm so afraid of it” or there's so much anxiety around it. Then they need to know something different. And so my hope was that anybody who picked it up could benefit from it.
Cardiff Garcia: And we're definitely going to tell your fellow business school professors that they're giving MBAs crap advice. So everybody is sometimes a perfectly valid answer.
Mori Taheripour: Yeah, there's no segmented population here I just wanted it I wanted the message to be completely accessible for everyone.
Cardiff Garcia: Mori Taheripour. Thanks so much for being on the next chapter. This was a real pleasure.
Mori Taheripour: Thank you so much. This was so much fun.
Cardiff VO: You’ve been listening to The Next Chapter by American Express Business Class. A special thanks to Mori Taheripour for coming on the show today. And please tune in to our next episode where I’ll speak with Luvvie Ajayi Jones, author of Professional Troublemaker: The Fearfighter Manual.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: How do you actually make the decision on whether you are going to say something in a heated moment or not, or in a room where you might not be the most powerful person?
How do you choose to either say yes to speaking up or being silent?
Until then, be sure to follow or subscribe on whatever app you may be using right now. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please leave us a review. Thanks for listening.