Every workplace needs a troublemaker. If that sounds odd, then check out “Professional Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighter Manual” by Luvvie Ajayi Jones. Ajayi Jones, a best-selling author and speaker, known for her honesty and wit, offers advice to readers on how to command the room at work and leave their fears at the door. She also chronicles her own rise as a self-described troublemaker. Earlier this year, Ajayi Jones adapted the work for young adults ready to make their mark in a new edition entitled, “Rising Troublemaker: A Fear-Fighter Manual for Teens”.
Every workplace needs a troublemaker. If that sounds odd, then check out “Professional Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighter Manual” by Luvvie Ajayi Jones. Ajayi Jones, a best-selling author and speaker, known for her honesty and wit, offers advice to readers on how to command the room at work and leave their fears at the door. She also chronicles her own rise as a self-described troublemaker. Earlier this year, Ajayi Jones adapted the work for young adults ready to make their mark in a new edition entitled, “Rising Troublemaker: A Fear-Fighter Manual for Teens”.
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Cardiff VO: My name is Cardiff Garcia, and this is The Next Chapter by American Express Business Class.
Hello, and welcome to the show. In each episode, we are introducing you to a bestselling book that everyone in the world of business can learn something from. We are going to hear how the author’s advice has evolved since they published their work, and what they’d write for their next chapter.
Today, we’re speaking with Luvvie Ajayi Jones, she’s the author of Professional Troublemaker: The Fear Fighter Manual, which came out in 2021. And in the book, Luvvie chronicles her own personal journey as a self-described troublemaker – and she offers advice on how readers can confront their own fears and anxieties, especially in the workplace. Luvvie is a New York Times bestselling author and a speaker. And she recently followed up Professional Troublemaker with a new edition, Rising Troublemaker: A Fear Fighting Manual for Teens, which adapts the book’s core messages for a young adult audience.
I invited Luvvie on the show to talk through what we can all learn from Professional Troublemaker, and how she would update her thoughts own causing trouble since the book came out last year.
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Cardiff Garcia: Luvvie Ajayi Jones. Welcome to The Next Chapter.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Thank you for having me.
Cardiff Garcia: Our pleasure. Here's where I want to start.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes.
Cardiff Garcia: It's with a formative experience that you write about in the book.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes.
Cardiff Garcia: You’re age nine, you have just migrated to the U.S. with your family from Nigeria, and you show up to school and you start having to figure out which parts of yourself you're going to have to change, and which parts you want to defend at all costs.
I love this story. I'd love for you to share it with our listeners.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes. So moved to the United States when I was nine years old. Nobody told me, I thought we were going on vacation, because we'd been here before on vacation. And I was like, oh, I didn't realize that we were staying until we started school. And so I basically was enrolled in school and I was like, oh, so this is permanent.
Cardiff Garcia: We're not going back.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: We're not going back. Like what? Nobody tells the baby or the family.
So I remember being pushed into the class and my teacher basically being like, introduce yourself. And I instantly knew that introducing myself as my first name, which is Efelloua was going to be too different. Like I knew they wouldn't be able to pronounce it. It was the first time that I'd been in a room where I felt different.
So I took a two second decision-making thing and ultimately was like, okay, I'm going to tell them my name is Lavette, which is a name that my aunt had called me as a nickname. So I was like, oh, my name is Lavette and of course was full Nigerian accent. And then, that's when I started trying to figure out, okay, I sound very different from the rest of them. My food is different from them because they're bringing sandwiches, and I'm bringing jollof rice. And, I remember the kids being like, what's that? And I was like, it's my rice? And they're like, huh, it smells funny. So...
Cardiff Garcia: Cause the kids all have like PB and J or ham and cheese sandwiches. That kinda thing…
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Exactly exactly. Exactly. And then here I am with like jollof rice with stew and meat.
Cardiff Garcia: You got to like heat it up in the microwave or something.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Right. And, you know, and, they were like, this is strange, she's weird. And I remember being like, you know what, I'm going to bring a sandwich to school and be like the other kids I'm gonna bring a sandwich.
And I brought a sandwich and I ate it. And I was like
Cardiff Garcia: Nope.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: No. Like I was hungry by one o'clock again. And I was like, this is not it. I'm just going to bring my food and just let them ask questions and I'm going to eat it anyway. So it's interesting. It's like, I was only willing to assimilate up to a certain point. Is where my rice was being interrupted, where I was like, no, I'm going to stick with it and y'all gonna have to ask me a lot of questions or I'm going to have to come up with great comebacks.
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah. There's a line that you gave to Adam Grant in another interview that I loved, where you said that you had to figure out how to shift towards the room versus how to make the room shift towards you. And it strikes me that that was like an early version of you figuring out this troublemaker identity, this troublemaker concept.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. Having to shift towards the room is like ultimately trying to figure out your place and trying to fit into the room. And at nine, at 10, at 11, you don't want to be different. You know, you don't want to be the person that stands out for something. So you do want to shift towards a room at that age. You might want to. But as I grew older, I realized, you know what? I think it's more powerful and it's easier for me when the room has a shift towards me, when I have to do less of the bending and others have to figure out how to fit my mold. Sometimes you don't have to shift towards a room and the room doesn't have to shift towards you. You can just stand in the middle and be okay.
Cardiff Garcia: So I want to now start by defining the concept of troublemaker…
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes.
Cardiff Garcia: before we get to some of your adult experiences.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes.
Cardiff Garcia: So somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I heard about this idea of being a professional troublemaker.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah.
Cardiff Garcia: The sort of association we have with the word troublemaker tends to be a bad one. You kind of jujitsu it into something positive.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Absolutely. Because I think we live in a deeply unjust world and to make trouble is to be somebody who is actually going against the status quo and going against what has created and upholded systems of oppression. I think to be a troublemaker, to be somebody who wants to elevate the world for the greater good. Right? So they're disruptors for good. They're trailblazers. They are people who will say, or do the hard things when it's necessary. And oftentimes it looks like you're making trouble.
Like if you're somebody who disagrees with what's happening in the room, it will sound like you're making trouble. And so I think about, late great, John Lewis, who said, let's be ready to make necessary good trouble, and how he dedicated his life to figuring out how he can make positive impact in this world.
That's really what it means to be a professional trouble maker.
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah. It's interesting that the concept of troublemaker here is almost like a commentary on what's going on in the environment, in which you're causing trouble.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Absolutely
Cardiff Garcia: Because if the circumstances you're in are unjust, or if there's something wrong, then the person giving that honest feedback that needs to be heard is the one who's quote unquote causing trouble.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Exactly, exactly. And I think, it's not about being a contrarian. It's not about being a troll or a hater. It's about being somebody who says my impact comes in the room that I'm in. So it's not about the person who was writing $30,000 checks or volunteering 85 hours at the soup kitchen.
What are you doing in the actual room that you are in every day? What are you doing around the people who listen to who you have access to? So yeah, it might look like, calling out your uncle for a joke that he made at a dinner table and being like, hey, that's not okay. It might look like speaking up in a meeting when somebody gives a terrible idea that you know is not going to go well.
And you're like, uh, can we be a little bit more thoughtful? Or can we think about this in a different way? I think troublemaking just looks like being the person who makes the room better.
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah. And then in front of the word troublemaker here, you're careful to explain professional troublemaker. It's like you're doing this at work and your job, or maybe as an entrepreneur, what are some examples of ways where it's useful to be a troublemaker in professional settings?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes.
Whenever a company has a moment of major backlash, I'm always like who is in the room who wanted to speak the truth, who wanted to make some trouble, but didn't have the courage in that moment or decide to sit it out. Troublemakers are actually the people who will watch for your blind spots.
So they're the people who would have asked you the question of, are we sure that tagline honors everybody we wanted to. There are people who will go, Hmm, I think we should slow down and make sure that this is as thoughtful as we want it to be. And I think in professional settings, troublemaking is ultimately challenging, and taking risks. And for a lot of companies who say they want to be innovative, who do not welcome troublemakers, how do you innovate without the person who's trying to think outside the box, how do you innovate and disrupt and do something that feels new and fresh and current and still relevant without honoring somebody who actually goes, I have an idea we've never tried before, but I think it might work.
So I actually think the companies that don't celebrate the troublemakers and the challengers are the ones that are going to struggle the most.
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Cardiff Garcia: I want to turn now to asking you about some ideas from your book that maybe people inside of organizations can use, especially leaders, people who oversee teams.
And there's an interesting place where I want to start, which is your year 2015, when you essentially tried a bunch of stuff that you were frightened by, you deliberately ran towards the stuff that frightened you. So can you tell us a little bit about that year and whether you think everybody should do something like this, because it might help them out?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes. So 2015 was my year of do it anyway, you know, Shonda Rhimes calls it her year of yes. When she did something similar and it was the year that I turned 30, my birthday is January 5th. So starting the year off, I was turning 30 - three days before I remember being like, I don't even know what I'm going to do for my birthday and it's like almost here. And I go, you know what? I kind of want to be out of the country. So typically if I want to take a trip, I would call my friends and be like, do you guys want to come on a trip with me? And then they'll say no. And I'll be like, oh, I guess I'm not going to go on this trip this time.
I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go on a trip by myself, I'm not telling anybody. And I went to the Dominican Republic solo. So I spent midnight, January 4th, becoming the fifth under the moon and the stars in the DR with a notebook and a journal. And I decided that I was going to make that year a year, that I was going to do more things like that.
Things that scared me, things that I typically wouldn't do. And that kicked off my year. And two months later I got my first book deal.
Cardiff Garcia: So solo trip, first book deal. I know from one of your speeches that you went skydiving year.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Went skydiving
Cardiff Garcia: Or as you referred to it, as I just jumped out of a perfectly good plane on purpose .
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes, like I paid somebody to jump out of a
Cardiff Garcia: throw you out of a plane.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: to throw me out of a plane like, madness. I ended up pulling the beard of a guy at a party who now is my husband.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I ended up writing my first book that year. That year was definitely a catalyst year for me because everything I did that year led to something grander. So the book that I wrote came out the year after, hit the Times list, allowed me to retire my mom. Yes, that guy whose beard, I pulled at the party, he's now my husband.
Cardiff Garcia: You just went up to a random guy and pulled his beard.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: He was walking across from me at a party and I was like, his beard is really nice. And I pulled his beard and I'd never, done that before in my life, I'm not that girl. So it was such a move that was not my usual. So I did so many things that were not in my usual and it all paid off in ways that, I'm still blown by because that first book led to my second book, professional troublemaker, which led to my newest book, Rising Troublemaker.
So I think my year of I'm going to do the things that scare me was transformative because ultimately pushed me outside of my comfort zone. And, you know, when they say like no risk, no rewards. I took all these risks and got all of these rewards.
Cardiff Garcia: What lessons did you learn about confronting fear and specifically the relationship between conquering fear versus living with it, acknowledging that it's there, but it won't stop you anyways.
What lessons did you take from that experience that you think others can apply to their own lives as well?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. One thing is like, fear is, it is just as natural, as love as joy, as anything else, sadness. And I think it's one that we try to act like it doesn't exist because somehow we've been told that to be afraid is to be weak.
And I think to be afraid is to be human. So for me that year, I was absolutely petrified doing most things, but I did them anyway. Like I knew I was afraid, but I was like, I'm going to charge forward regardless. And I think once I realized that the moments when I do that, I win and I started making it a life habit. I started recognizing the moments when I was afraid of something, when it felt too big this is time for me to stretch. I'm going to step forward and I'm going to do it. And it taught me that there is no courage in the absence of fear.
Cardiff Garcia: In your book, you also write about different kinds of group settings where you might speak up.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah.
Cardiff Garcia: Or where you might be, let's say pragmatically patient or silent for the moment. One is when there's a question of values at stake, and especially when it would be useful for the other people in a group setting to hear your voice, especially if there's others in the room who are more vulnerable, who aren't the boss
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Correct.
Cardiff Garcia: and who don't have a lot of power. Versus settings where if it's just an idea about like how best to, I don't know, make a product or something, and there's maybe a risk in that case of embarrassing, the person who made the idea, maybe that's a setting where you can like pull the person aside later and say, listen, I didn't want to embarrass you in front of everybody, but here's why it's a bad idea.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Right.
Cardiff Garcia: And so like, there's different ways of communicating things, but you have to also make a judgment in a group setting. So I'd love to hear more about how you think about like, differing approaches to raising your voice.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: You know, it's all about the idea of being thoughtful in it, as thoughtful as you possibly could be, because you cannot promise that everybody will think everything you say is going to be thoughtful.
And that's fine. But in terms of group settings. I'm a fan of pre-meetings. So for example, before, meaning if you, maybe it's a brainstorm session, maybe to follow up, meeting to a past one, talking to a coworker who is aligned with you and saying, hey, I'm going to be bringing up this particular scenario.
Can you back me up in it? Absolutely. So you walk in already with an ally that can plus one your work, right. That can give you currency.
But there is also the value of, okay, if you understand that the person who's put forth this idea is somebody you do, you’re already aligned, with, and you don't want to show up as disagreeing with them publicly,
after the meeting, you might want to go up and say, hey, listen, here's a hole in that idea. I want you to think about it before bringing it up again, because I don't think it's going to work in the way you think it's going to work. Right? And I think you have to navigate those pieces, but I'm always a fan of trusting adults with each other's feelings as in, even if we are allies and I still disagree with your idea, even if I don't have a chance to talk to you in advance in the meeting, I can say, Hmm.
Okay. I can see a good point, but have you reconsidered this part? Because I want us to also be okay with understanding that disagreement is not indictment of our character. Like me disagreeing with your idea is not an insult to you, the person.
Cardiff Garcia: And you're not calling that person an idiot or something, you just think they're wrong.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: So I actually think even thoughtful disagreements are welcome in a room. And one of my company's core values is that we will challenge each other and ourselves every day. We have it as a company policy during meetings. Like you don't have to wait until the meeting's over to disagree with me. And me as the boss as the CEO of the company I always tell my team, listen, if all of you agree with my idea, I don't trust it.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: If you think my idea is so good that none of you have questions about it. No, I'm going to make you figure out a question because also to get them used to the idea that we can exist in a room and have, different ideas and perspective and not take it personally and not, feel insulted by the very fact that somebody just doesn't think my idea is great.
And I want to all get used to that because that's how we can have real trusting relationships with each other.
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah… Let's say I'm the CEO of a company and I'm frustrated by how conformist everything is.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes.
Cardiff Garcia: And the feedback is not getting up to me.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yup.
Cardiff Garcia: And I call you, and I say, Luvvie, I've heard of this concept of professional troublemaker.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah.
Cardiff Garcia: I love it in theory, but in practice, I'm having trouble putting in place the systems or the environment that's actually welcome to professional troublemakers. And I want that, but either I'm having trouble hiring enough people who fit that mold, or they do work here already, but they're stifled somehow. And I need your advice. What can I, as a manager do to make it a more friendly environment for the people who are giving the kind of tough feedback that I need and I'm not getting right now.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: There's a lot of companies that are dealing with lack of troublemakers. As a society, as a culture, let's be clear we have prioritized comfort and harmony over anything else. So we culturally have forgotten how to bring justice and truth into the room and how to handle it.
We're instantly uncomfortable. So companies have created culture within them that's actually shown challengers and troublemakers that it’s not welcome.
Whether or not they're doing it on purpose they have. Leaders are really fragile about hearing feedback. So then people have learned to, withhold it. So then it's created this cycle of, let's not tell them the truth, because if we do, they don't know how to take it. People will see their reviews say aggressive or not a team player because of the person who asked more questions.
Cardiff Garcia: Too loud
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Too loud, or, you know, too combative by combative just means I disagreed with an idea.
So it's actually having a real, conversation with yourself and with your team on, in what ways have we let you know that you are not welcome here? In what ways have we maybe even punished people who have spoken up, people who've been bypassed for promotions because they've happened to be the one asking the questions.
So, if a CEO says, I'm trying to create this culture, but it's hard. It's because the environment of the company within the company with the leaders internally with HR has shown people that it's best to just conform. So to fix that you're going to have to overhaul it. You're going to actually have to make it a point to be very overt about the fact that you want people to challenge. I start my meetings by saying like, alright, give me your real thoughts. Real thoughts. Give me your honest thoughts. I want to know exactly what you're thinking. Is this even a good idea? I actually asked my team the questions that forces them to actually challenge me, even if they don't feel like it that day, I'm like, do y'all even think this is a good idea, or I'll go, if you were not the ones creating this, would you even care?
And if they go, “well…” I'm like, see, we got to think about it different then, let's do something different. I'm always pushing that. And I think that insistence on bringing that into the room means my team is always on the hook for challenging me as opposed to me being like, oh Lord, don't disagree. So as a CEO, you actually, have to like ask for that.
Cardiff Garcia: In Professional Troublemaker, you also bring up the idea that inside of a company or an organization or a team, not everybody gets treated the same when they're quote unquote making trouble. And specifically that people from marginalized groups will get labeled differently when they speak up.
And you address some of the book to black women in particular, because when they're in groups where there are not a lot of other black women and they speak up, they get labeled as too aggressive, not a team player and other kinds of labels. So what is your advice? Both to the people who oversee groups, so that that kind of stereotyping doesn't happen, but also what's your advice to, for example, people from marginalized groups who want to speak up, but there's a real risk that they're going to get tagged by the rest of the group and it might harm their career somehow.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah. So one of the things that I offer up with leaders is when you are writing reviews or whatever it is about employees, if it's a black woman employee, if it's a woman employee, if the word you're about to use, you would not use for any of your male employees, don't use it.
Because I think that's an instant signal that what you're about to do is biased in some way, even when you don't realize it. So if you would never call a male employee too aggressive or too assertive, then you should absolutely never use it for the women who work at your companies. And then when it's used for black women, it's especially coded because sometimes the people who consider us aggressive are other women, you know, because we might have more base in our voice.
I talk with my hands a lot. Like I am very much expressive in how I come across. So somebody might consider that aggressive if I'm in a meeting and if I disagree with them, but that same energy that I'm using in that moment, is the same energy I'm using when I'm super, super excited. So it's the same thing.
So I offer that up because I think there's so much unconscious bias and how, black women are treated internally at companies. You know, I talked to a lot of really amazing women who every single day have to fight to be respected and they have to figure out how they want to do and show up in every way, because any movement on their part is being watched and coded. So it's a huge part of people's work life and it's exhausting. What I would offer up to marginalized people who are afraid of being tagged as aggressive assertive, I don't even know much to even give you because
Cardiff Garcia: It's in a way, an unfair question, by the way, if you think about it, like they shouldn't have to be the ones to have follow advice.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Exactly. Correct.
Cardiff Garcia: It's just that, that is the reality that a lot of marginalized people, uh, work in.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: All I have to offer them is, my understanding, my affirmation, that, like, I see you, I hear you.
And I can't tell you to be less of yourself. I can't tell you to honor yourself less than betray yourself less to make other people comfortable. I can't tell you to silence yourself more because for me that just feels like self betrayal. I just hope for them that they end up at a company with a leader who can show up and welcome you and say, you know what? I need you to show up as your full self, because your full self is the best thing that this company needs.
Cardiff Garcia: Well, that in itself is a, is a good piece of advice, which is find the company where the environment is right for you.
And if you can, if you can afford it, not everybody can.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Right.
Cardiff Garcia: And I recognize that, leave the places where you are being treated unjustly.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah and I'm hoping this moment in time, more people are seeing what roles they play in creating those places that are not good for anybody on the margins. And I'm hoping people are shifting themselves.
I'm hoping this is a moment of reckoning of great reckoning. Where, companies become actually like truly culturally sensitive, where leaders are especially plugged into how they're showing up and how they're creating certain cultures within their businesses. And, I’m hoping I lead, in my presence and my words and that my work actually allows another black woman who works somewhere to be heard different and heard better.
Cardiff VO: You’re listening to The Next Chapter by American Express Business Class. When we come back, I’ll ask Luvvie Ajayi Jones about how her thinking has changed since she published her book, Professional Troublemaker.
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Cardiff Garcia: I want to ask now about the theme of this whole podcast, which is the next chapter, how your thinking on professional troublemaking might've changed in the time since the book first came out.
And in your case, there is actually a next chapter, a literal next chapter. You wrote a bonus chapter for the paperback and it's called “Slaying the Dragon”. So tell us the inspiration behind writing that chapter and what you want to get across in it.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: The reason why I wrote “Slay the Dragon”, the truth telling guide is because I wanted to get really practical about how people can tell the truth in whatever moments that they find themselves in. Because when I tell you about truth, telling, you know, might seem abstract, but I'm like, no, like how do you actually make the decision on whether you are going to say something in a heated moment or not, or in a room where you might not be the most powerful person?
How do you choose to either say yes to speaking up or being silent. And “Slay the Dragon” is a chapter that I added as a bonus chapter paperback because it doesn't exist. I have never seen an actual truth telling guide something to quantify how you make that decision to use your voice or not and as far as the next chapter, what happened as a result of me coming out with professional troublemaker, parents were telling me that they were sharing it with their teenagers. That they were like, oh my gosh, I wish I had this book when I was 17. And I was like, well, you know what, I'm going to write one for the teenagers.
So I actually adapted Professional Troublemaker into Rising Troublemaker. Which is for young people, it's a fear fighter manual for teens. And it's the book that I wish I did have at 16 that would have reminded me that what made me different was my superpower that would have affirmed to me that my voice matters, even in the rooms where I have to fight for it.
The book that would have told me to negotiate my salaries, because I also didn't learn that until I was like 27.
Cardiff Garcia: What were some of the concepts in the original that you adapted for the version for teens?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Most but I, one thing that I added for teens, I added a separate get your money chapter because we don't talk to them about money enough.
Most of them don't even realize what credit score is. And I don't know about you, remember in college when. You had the credit card solicitators who like wanted to just, oh, you can get a t-shirt and you sign up for a credit card. How many people ruin their credit for a decade
Cardiff Garcia: By the time they graduated?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Absolutely. And I'm like, these are the types of things that we should be telling them. Like the, Pythagorean theorem is great. great, thanks. But I also need them to know how to create relationships that will lead to their next jobs or scholarships, internships. How do they honor themselves in the world that doesn't honor them.
Cardiff Garcia: Practical advice that'd be good to know before you got to the working world. Not that you have to learn as you go along, because that can be an effective, but quite tough way to learn lessons.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Which we did, Which we did, Right. Our generation did that and I'm like, you know, all the hardships that we had, we don't have to force them to do the same thing. They can actually step around some of our mistakes cause they know better.
Cardiff Garcia: And in your transition period from leaving your job as a marketer for nonprofits, then becoming a writer, it was around the time of the great financial crisis, which was an awful time to be having to look for work. And it might good also for young people just to know, cause that was now 13 years in the past that this can happen.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Correct
Cardiff Garcia: This can happen. The circumstances of your life, your economic life included can change quite dramatically and you gotta be ready for it because it's sucks when it happens.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: It sucks, and do they know how to invest? Do they even know the concept? I'd never heard about the concept of investing until I was deep in my twenties.
And I'm like, imagine an 18 year old investing money now. Like, oh my gosh, I have a nephew who is 16. And on his 14th birthday, they asked him what he wanted. He said he wanted an investment portfolio. And he got it. So I'm just like, oh, you going to be, you're going to be good. You're going to be good by 25.
Cardiff Garcia: Wish I'd known
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Wish I had known that.
Can you imagine? So that's why I wrote Rising Troublemaker. It's the book that would have been my mentor growing up and it would have allowed me to, to really make fewer mistakes. So that was the next chapter from Professional Troublemaker.
Cardiff Garcia: Teenagers are famously averse to listening to their parents as well.
I'm wondering if maybe the fact that the advice is coming in the shape of a book written, not by their parents parents can just say here, if you don't believe me, here you go.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yes, cause I also approach it in the idea that I'm speaking to them, not at them.
So how I write is in hopes that people can hear my voice and I'm hoping that, they really see it to your point. That's such a great point. Your parents can tell you something to 5,000 times and then some random person would finally tell you, and you go, okay. So I'm hoping I'm that person.
Cardiff Garcia: The person backing up the parents with the good advice.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Absolutely.
Cardiff Garcia: On financial terms.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah
Cardiff Garcia: You also give a little bit of advice, which is that if you can pull it off and you do right that not everybody can, you're aware of that to have a kind of reserve fund that gives you the freedom to leave a really crappy job if you're in one. And you refer to it, this is a family show. So I'll call it the F-you fund instead of this, instead of spelling it out.
But this is a really interesting concept because I think a lot of people think of money in terms of what they can get with it. Well, you're saying is that money also in some senses gives you the freedom to pursue a better life, a better place to work, a better professional setting for your talents.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I think having a freedom fund allows you to have choice the freedom of choice. You won't have to stay in relationships that don't serve you. You won't have to stay in jobs that are like bleeding you dry. You won't have to make these choices for survival. Because a lot of us who live on margins, there are people who live paycheck to paycheck.
They're on survival mode. So they can't have a freedom fund. My hope is that people can find the privilege of no longer being in that position, fighting against all sorts of systems to get there. But when we are able to get to a point where we are no longer on survival mode, being able to stack your freedom fund is just choice.
It buys you the ability to say no to the things that are not good for you anymore.
Cardiff Garcia: Yeah. Freedom also an F word.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: That's it. A freedom fund.
Cardiff Garcia: It's F word that matters.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah.
Cardiff Garcia: Last question you have talked about how you're constantly comparing yourself only against yourself. You want to keep doing better. And so my final question is what kind of trouble do you want to make in the future? What fears are you trying to conquer next?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: One, I'll tell you about a fear that I have that my shock you.
Cardiff Garcia: Okay
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:I don't know how to drive.
Cardiff Garcia: Really.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: I am afraid of driving. I think the fear is around not trusting other people with their cars.
Cardiff Garcia: That is not totally an irrational fear though.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Right? I keep saying I'm just going to conquer it. So I'm going to do it one of these days. I just learned how to ride a bike like a year and a half ago, my husband taught me and I haven't been on a bike since, but me and me and wheels just don't really
Cardiff Garcia: You like to have your feet on the ground.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Which is why me skydiving was crazy.
Cause I was like, what? I don't even like wheels, let alone jumping through the air.
Cardiff Garcia: It's interesting. Cause it sounds like you enjoy trying new things, learning new skills,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Yeah.
Cardiff Garcia: but there are some specific things that have these characteristics where you think, forget it, not doing it. Wheels going faster than I can run. I don't know.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: That's it that's it. Rollerskates? I can't do none of that skateboard. Cannot. So if there was a fear for me to conquer, it would be me and wheels.
Cardiff Garcia: Okay. Wheels are next, alright?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Wheels might be next, you know, let me not promise, cause I like to under promise and over deliver, but wheels are a tough one.
Cardiff Garcia: Luvvie Ajayi Jones. Thanks so much for being on the next chapter.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Thank you so much for having me. This is great.
(Theme Music)
Cardiff VO: You’ve been listening to The Next Chapter by American Express Business Class. A special thanks to Luvvie Ajayi Jones for coming on the show today. And please tune in to our next episode where I’ll speak with Adam Grant, author of Originals: How Nonconformists Move the World.
Adam Grant: The skills it takes to generate original ideas, are not always correlated positively with, and sometimes even they're correlated negatively with the skills that allow people to execute on ideas, but that doesn't mean execution lacks originality.
Cardiff VO: And be sure to follow or subscribe on whatever app you may be using right now. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please leave us a review, and thanks for listening.